There is an email thread I'm on, someone asked for an ID for the lace in this portrait.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/25/Luise_Ulrike_vo...

The black, on the shoulder, is the question. It says 1775 on the Louisa of Prussia page for this portrait.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisa_Ulrika_of_Prussia

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Point ground -- probably Chantilly since black (silk probably) and kat stitch is sometimes found there too, although design is relatively simple compared to later Chantilly.

Looks like Chantilly.  Interestingly, you can very clearly see the 2 different grounds and where it's seamed.  

The black lace is chantilly with a very surprising edge with Paris point.... Never see that. Anyway it's the first period of Chantilly and I know more 19 century Chantilly.What surprised me in this image is the blonde we can see above the Chantilly because I thought Caen Blond appeared in 19 century. But I bought recently  a "new book: Histoire de la dentelle" Editions Firmin-Didot 1890 Edition. and they say that white blond appeared in Caen in 1745.

They say "The white blonde can't be done by everyone because  of the cleaning the need, in fact the woman who don't have such a pure breath can't do. The lacemakers who work this lace work outside in the summer and in attics upstairs stables becouse they couldn't work near the fire as usual, because of the smoke"

You can imagine I'm very happy with this book!!!!!!

Nowadays to do this lace we use 4/20 silk. You can buy it in Bart-Francis in Belgium or in pippersilk in United Kindom

Paris point in Chantilly lace does exist, it is locally called "Fond Chant" . Point ground is more common, called "Fond Alençon".

Yes I know it, because in Bayeux, when you learn, we have few pieces with it. But I've never seen it in an old lace....Here you have one of the exercices we have in the Bayeux Lace traning

Attachments:

I made the handkerchief from the same pattern, the right bottom one 

http://sophiedentelles.canalblog.com/archives/2007/08/27/index.html

Arzhela LE MAITRE said:

Yes I know it, because in Bayeux, when you learn, we have few pieces with it. But I've never seen it in an old lace....Here you have one of the exercices we have in the Bayeux Lace traning

The portrait doesn't give us enough detail for any confidence in an identification. That is the first problem.

The 2nd problem is that I am not at all sure chantilly existed as early as 1775. All the point ground laces are primarily 19th century laces, developed to allow faster lace making. In the 1700s I would expect Mechlin, but I have never heard of black Mechlin. It is possible, of course, that chantilly was made before 1800, but I haven't seen real evidence.

I am not making any absolute denial of chantilly: I just see problems with that ID.

Arzhela and Sophie -- nice to see examples of your work.

Gosh, I think the painting gives amazing detail. It is clearly whole stitch in the motifs and point ground in the upper area. I suppose that could be Mechlin ground, but the motifs are two big and bold for Mechlin. Kat stitch is clear and certainly not Mechlin, although I think that it's not a seam, but the lace is folded back on itself. I think the painting is evidence that point ground DID exist in the late 18th C. Had to start sometime, and someone fancy would have been the first to wear it. Any identification other than Chantilly seems to me even less likely.

Lorelei Halley Administrator said:

The portrait doesn't give us enough detail for any confidence in an identification. That is the first problem.

The 2nd problem is that I am not at all sure chantilly existed as early as 1775.

To me, it looks like two different black laces joined.  The outside one has a lot in common with the Ipswich laces made in Ipswich, MA in the late 1700s - and probably elsewhere, we just don't know exactly where.  The ground looks like kat stitch. The upper one is painted to look like Alencon or Argentan but the motifs look like bobbin lace.  To me, it does not look like point ground. But we have to remember, it is a painting, not a detailed photo.  I have not yet found any clear evidence of point ground being used until late 1700, maybe 1780? Heather Toomer (and Jean Leader from her) says 1760, which I am not disputing as such, I would love to see the evidence.   

You are right, Nancy. I was being idiotic. Didn't see the + sign.

Well, that was fascinating. Thanks for the input, all. 

PS: I'm gonna sign up for that IOLI workshop on lace identification....

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