This is my first post in this group, something I'd love to find out about what type of lace this is.  It appears to be a design possibly hand woven onto a very fine filet net, or it could possibly be machine woven or even a bobbin lace if that's possible.

It is a very very fine piece of lace, the net being very light, almost like a hat net and hair thin.  I'm assuming it's cotton and not silk as there doesn't appear to have a sheen to it.

I've got nearly 18 yards of it (in 3 pieces), so if that is any clue, I don't know.

Thanks for any clues anyone can offer !

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Thanks for that Lorelei....will check them out!  Also, in that case, I would assume the net may be machine made?  Your thoughts?

I have heard people insist that the knotted net can be machine made. But I still have trouble believing it. I think women desperate for an income in countries with no solid economic base work for pennies an hour making plain undecorated net is more likely. For a machine to be set up to make something there has to be a huge market to purchase the product. How many people do you know who will rush out an buy knotted square net to embroider? I could probably come up with a handful, but that doesn't justify the work and effort needed for an engineer to figure it all out.

I understand what you are saying and I'd love it if were indeed hand made net, but I am sure that even early hat netting was  machine made as it was sold far and wide.  Machines already made bobbinet, even silk bobbinet, in which the silk is quite fine, so that is the reasoning behind my opinion.  There is one mill still in England making the cotton and I believe the silk is made in France.  On this I want to do some research just for the heck of it and see what I come up with!  Also, I've seen some interesting pix among the pattern booklets site and one somehow stands out to me....Richelieu Filet.  It seems to be slightly similar.

OK. But there is a distinction between bobbinnet and hexagonal machine made net (tulle) and knotted square mesh net. They are not the same and cannot be made on the same machine, even if the square net is possibly machine made. The thread paths are completely different. I don't know whether hat net was tulle or knotted square net. But I strongly suspect it was tulle, hexagonal machine made net. That kind of machine first was possible in the 1780s. Machine made tulle didn't become reliably and consistently available in large pieces until the 1820s or 1830s.

This 2 volume work by Pat Earnshaw might help. I only have volume 1 and find it very hard going. Perhaps you can get more from it.

Lace Machines and Machine Laces: v. 1: Pat Earnshaw - Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Lace-Machines-Machine-Laces-v/dp/095241130X
Lace Machines and Machine Laces: v. 1 [Pat Earnshaw] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers.

Lace Machines and Machine Laces: v. 2: Pat Earnshaw - Amazon.com

https://www.amazon.com/Lace-Machines-Machine-Laces-v/dp/0952411318
Lace Machines and Machine Laces: v. 2 [Pat Earnshaw] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Lace Machines and Machines: Volume 2.

hexagonal machine net (the wrong side of an embroidered tulle lace)

knotted square net

I have one of her books "The Identification of Lace" and intend to get others when finances permit.

Hat veiling was not all hexagonal....I do know that all 3 you mention are different whether by machine as in tulle and by hand, knotted.:

Here's antique French hat veiling from the same seller on Etsy that had the lace similar to mine

https://www.etsy.com/listing/607565743/antique-french-silk-hat-veil...

This one is neither knotted square net, nor is it hexagonal twist net. It is something else entirely.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/565213289/antique-french-silk-hat-veil...

Nets are not necessarily for craft use. There are fishing nets, for example. That would be much heavier, of course. But browsing on the web, I found bird nets:

https://www.knowlenets.co.uk/cat/garden-nets-frames/garden-netting-...

Some of those look as if they might be our square nets. So people might have designed machines for such use, with large numbers of customers, and then either sold spare stuff to craft people, or actually did a few runs with special thread specifically for them. This reasoning could be all rubbish, as we are talking about the past. Modern anti-bird nets can be very fine, to catch birds for ringing, etc, and that is a modern idea. Still, I advance the idea for consideration!

It would need a clever machine to do this! The hexagonal twist net is far easier to reproduce, as it is just bobbins twisting round their neighbours. Nets require real knots rather than twists. But I get the impression that since some people made fortunes out of weaving and lace machines, other engineers piled in to do the same, and they were looking at every possible type of fabric construction (if you can call a net a fabric). 

None of this is proof, of course!

I don't think I sent you this one, the gray as I believe it's called Russian veiling.....I sent the navy which is a square net, here:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/607565743/antique-french-silk-hat-veil...

Let me know if the navy doesn't come up as it is currently for sale in her shop.

Lorelei Halley Administrator said:

This one is neither knotted square net, nor is it hexagonal twist net. It is something else entirely.

https://www.etsy.com/listing/565213289/antique-french-silk-hat-veil...

The square knotted bird netting is interesting. Now I really do wonder about machine made knotted net. I'd like to see the machine in action.


Now that would be a find that would take some major sleuthing!!

I tried putting a search key of "machine for making netting" into Google images, and got lots of fun websites!

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/dubai-curtain-velvet-fabric-...
This is quite fun. Scroll down for types of net - they show our square net with others.

https://www.tradekey.com/product-free/Toyo-Netting-Making-Machine-F...
This doesn't look like our square net, but it could be if pulled sideways. If so, it might give a clue as to how it is made.There are photos of the machine as well, as in the other websites, but they all look much the same - like any weaving machine. None moving with details showing, unfortunately. I guess they just shrug their shoulders and say "The machine works - why do you want to know how?"

Aren't there a lot of different types of net!

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