There is a piece in the museum which appears to be made into a dress skirt of the 1890s, although I think that it might have started out as a mantilla or several mantillas. It seems to me that because it is a black point ground lace, a black blonde with large motifs that it is most likely a lace from the early to middle of the 19th century. In  1820, 1830, large motifs were popular. Black laces were quite popular in the mid-19th century. But our classification system says it is an 18th century piece. It seems to me that blonde originated in the late 18th century and at that time it had rather small motifs. So, I am confused about why someone thought it was 18th century. But, previous classification of the collection  is quite good and I am wondering if I have missed something that identified this as 18th century to a previous cataloger. 

Does anyone have any insight as to why this was considered to be 18th century?

Views: 116

Attachments:

Replies to This Discussion

Here are more photos 

Attachments:
I don’t see any photos. But was point ground used in the mid 18th C? The large motifs you describe seem more 1820s-1830s.

As I've put on Arachne,

I would also put it to 18th C. as a possibility. My reasoning is that there are 17th paintings that "hint" at the rising of black point ground. Margaret Theresa of Spain at the Prado has one such hint at her cuff above the bracelet. https://tinyurl.com/y655alld
and then from the same museum, Play Rehearsal https://tinyurl.com/y6koy5px  the figure in the back center left has a mantilla that is most likely a black blonde. As is current today, it is likely a used mantilla (probably with loads of non-lace holes) and putting it solidly into the 18th C. The Hispanic Society also has Goya's Duchesse of Alba which is end of the 18th C. and may be wearing a black blonde (this was just in Albuquerque and hard to find the detail-as all of his work!)
There are many other Spanish paintings of the 18th century that hint at black lace, most likely a point ground. And why not? We see plenty of other northern European point grounds during this period. There does seem to be the trend for black accessories during this time as well. 
Still curious, too. But it seems plausible to date this 18thC to me.
As an addendum to the skirt, wouldn't it be earlier 19th C because of the net ruching? 

One can't argue with Laura's dates for the painters or subjects of the paintings. That clearly puts her examples in the 18th century. But those laces did hot need to be black blonde or Chantilly. They could have been something else entirely. The paintings don't give enough detail to certify that black blonde was made in the 18th century. The paintings only prove that black lace was being made in Spain in the 18th century. 

I am not at all sure about when point ground laces began. They certainly were dominant during the 19th century. But how far back in time is a question. I could believe late 18th century, but early 18th?  No. Middle 18th -- a question. Point ground laces were an attempt to make lace faster. Less work than Mechlin ground or any snowflake ground.  Although machines to make lace were invented in the late 18th century  - 1780s ?? - They would not have immediately provoked the development of handmade competitive laces.

As to Devon's question, I don't see any reason to think the piece is 18th century. The motif shapes don't look like what I've seen from the 18th century. I think your date is much more likely. But there are places where it looks like the ground was sewn onto the sewing edge of the motifs, which suggests part lace construction. Can you verify that the ground threads actually go into the motif, or are they just sewn onto the edges of the motifs?

I agree with Lorelei that Laura's examples are intriguing, but not very clear. The first one where she speaks of a bracelet with lace above it looks like the bracelet and the lace are a point ground lace where the point ground is invisible, much like a 19th century chantilly. I can't see anything in Levey like this. But, I think a significant aspect of the lace is the size of the motifs which seem most like the blondes of the 1820s and 1830s. Earlier we had a discussion on arachne and more or less came to a conclusion that it was in the late 18th century that point ground arose, and then in the context of very small motifs. Since my original posting, I have heard that the dress front is more like the fashion of about 1905 than the 19th century. I am uploading some photos of close-ups so that Lorelei can see the way the threads go in and out. Any information is gratefully received. 

I agree that the motif shapes of the 3rd example is very much like Blonde of the 1st half of the 19th century. The other 2 examples don't give me any certainty, unfortunately. The green stars are near connections which may be motif threads moving into the ground -- normal point ground technique. But the red rings show connections which really look like sewings -- where ground threads were hooked onto the motif edge. And sometimes these are right next to each other. Baffling. 

RSS

Translate This Site

Notes

HOW THE SOFTWARE WORKS

Created by Lorelei Halley Administrator Jan 19, 2012 at 7:07pm. Last updated by Lorelei Halley Administrator Dec 9, 2014.

PHOTOS

Created by Lorelei Halley Administrator Jan 19, 2012 at 7:29pm. Last updated by Lorelei Halley Administrator Sep 2, 2014.

How to Post a Long Article

Created by Lorelei Halley Administrator Mar 7, 2013 at 4:47pm. Last updated by Lorelei Halley Administrator Mar 7, 2013.

COMMUNITY GUIDELINES

Created by Lorelei Halley Administrator Jan 19, 2012 at 6:58pm. Last updated by Lorelei Halley Administrator Dec 20, 2012.

How to embed a video on the IOLI site

Created by Tatman Jan 25, 2012 at 3:26pm. Last updated by Lorelei Halley Administrator Jan 25, 2012.

Groups

Members

Badge

Loading…

Events

Other Events

Laurie Waters has a very substantial EVENTS list on lacenews.

http://lacenews.net/lace-event-calendars/).   

EU Cookie Directive

© 2019   Created by Lorelei Halley Administrator.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service