Comment

Comment by Elizabeth Ligeti on July 12, 2019 at 9:14pm

I wish my joins and finishing off was as neat as in these photos you have shown us, Devon!!!   

I have found this a Very interesting discussion, though I have not been able to add anything to it. I have never tried lassen, - but do keep educating me, I love to learn more about lace, and to see the photos of such beautiful pieces.

Comment by Lorelei Halley Administrator on July 12, 2019 at 6:45pm

Hiding threads behind a braid is very difficult. I have never been really good at it. Your example is interesting.

Comment by Devon Thein on July 11, 2019 at 6:39pm

On the ever fascinating topic of lassen, I ran across some lassen on Valenciennes where the join is actually a zig-zag, which would require less of an overlap than a diagonal. The joining in the solid areas is disorderly looking compared to what our teachers would probably think. 

Comment by Lorelei Halley Administrator on June 28, 2019 at 9:11pm

Guipure - joined by bars. Yes that is my understanding too. But it ignores the major structural difference between continuous and part lace.

As I have seen lassen used, it does not usually occur at the corner..  If the lace has gathered corners there still needs to be a join somewhere to attach the end to the beginning.  I do see what you are saying Nancy. With seamed corners there is no need for lassen. But corners worked continuously, or corners gathered might require some kind of join. I suppose we need to look at historic laces from the last half of the 19th century (when these issues came to a head with turned corners), to see what joining methods were used, and how corners were worked. The problem would be to get specificity on the date.

Comment by Devon Thein on June 23, 2019 at 1:57pm

I have had a look at Ann Buck's book and I see what Lorelei means about the same type of flower. I guess it is a rose. The date on one of these rose pieces is 1860-80. It would be interesting to know if there was an international style trend of roses at this time, especially ones that look like this. But, one thing looking at the roses in this book reveals is that the roses on the handkerchief don't resemble them very much. The Roses in the Buck book have details provided by interior gimps surrounding spaces. The roses in the handkerchief are very dense. In fact, they are so dense, I think I can even see little tufts of thread suggesting that threads were put in and taken out in the manner of 19th century Valenciennes to make for a very solid white contrast to the ground. 

Regarding the term guipure, I have always gone on the supposition that it means a lace that has no mesh, thus it is joined by bars.

Comment by Nancy A. Neff on June 22, 2019 at 11:24pm

I think it might help to clarify something: as far as I can see, no one was ever suggesting that corners were joined by lassen. Obviously they are not, they are seamed. The reason flat corners were brought into the discussion is that if there were no longer gathered corners in which to hide a seamed join, then there would be reason to develop the lassen technique, to make the join inconspicuous if the corners were not seamed but worked continuously. One would not expect to see lassen at all in a piece with joined corners--there'd be no need for it.. Determining when worked flat corners in rectangular-grid lace began gives an estimate of when lassen was developed. But I'll repeat again: no one was ever suggesting that lassen was used at the corners--they are obviously seamed, and could hardly be anything else since matching overlap would usually be impossible.

Comment by Lorelei Halley Administrator on June 22, 2019 at 10:41pm

I want to apologize for tuning into this discussion so very late. I've been dealing with one problem after another since late December. I've been avoiding anything that requires effort, saving my energies for the various disasters.

Comment by Lorelei Halley Administrator on June 22, 2019 at 10:39pm

Devon's example of Valenciennes de Gand Is exactly the motif shapes I was thinking of when I said the piece was reminiscent of Val.

For older Bedfordshire designs, look at Ann Buck's book on Thomas Lester. That takes Beds back to around 1850. The IOLI library probably has a copy of that book.

Comment by Lorelei Halley Administrator on June 22, 2019 at 10:35pm

I think Carolina's reference to Leni Matthei is most helpful. There we do see a very similar ground.

Comment by Lorelei Halley Administrator on June 22, 2019 at 10:20pm

48.187.645 is not Honiton, I think. There is nothing about the style which suggests Honiton of the 19th century, and it certainly isn't 20th century. It does appear to be a straight lace (continuous lace) with motif threads moving into that strange ground.

The density of the motifs and their shape are somewhat reminiscent of Valenciennes, but the ground certainly isn't Val ground, or even a distant relative. That ground is very odd.

I don't think it is Beds, because the design, the style, isn't anywhere like any Beds lace I have seen. Beds designs have a graceful, organic feel to them -- not a very specific description. But I really don't think Cluny or Maltese.

I think it is continental on structural and stylistic grounds. But exactly where I don't know. It isn't like any 19th century LePuy lace that I have seen. I would lable it "continental guipure" except it doesn't have a braided ground (plaited ground). It could be France, Germany, Italy ??? Doris Southard used the term "continental guipure" to refer to floral design  straight laces of continental origin (no specific country) with a braided/plaited ground. 

Nancy I appreciate your reference to that page in my website. I haven't given any geographical names to any of those because I simply don't know. I won't make definite statements unless I am reasonably sure.

Regarding the term "guipure", I have also seen it used by central European lace makers to refer to modern lace designs which are pictorial, and which may have both straight lace and part lace structures in them. So I suppose it is a flawed term and we should find something to replace it.

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