I have been contacted by a Dutch lacemaker who asked me what "punto de ajedrez" and "punto monja" are. They are grounds, and from their names, Spanish. I haven't heard of either of them. She gave a YouTube video of "punto de ajedrez" (which means, I guess, checkerboard ground) and it looks like a rose ground but the centre filled in with cloth stitch. (The video is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RFC5RX7zUs for anyone who's interested - but it's in Spanish!)

But I can't find anything about ''punto monja". "monja" means nun. Anyone got any ideas?

I'm sorry if this isn't a fit subject for a beginner's forum. But I'm a beginner in Spanish lace! (As in, I haven't even started yet...)

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Punto monja is another name for a ground that we also call "trena vella" or "punto de perdiz" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gqyn3k6hFI). The way it's made (and keep in mind I'm a twist-crosser) is TTC (pin) TTC. Another variant uses 3 twists instead of 2.

Marisa and Jo

I looked at Marisa's link. That looks like the stitch that Doris Southard called "twisted hole ground" in her book (which I learned from).

I love all the different names that exist for stitches, even if they do make communicaton challenging!

I looked at Jo's link and could not follow what the lady was doing. But possibly it was this -- 

Am I seeing it correctly?

Are you asking about the chessboard stitch? I watched the video and took notes on the process, and would be happy to post the steps here.

Administrator said:

I looked at Jo's link and could not follow what the lady was doing. But possibly it was this -- 

Am I seeing it correctly?

Marisa

Please do post your notes on that video here. I think it would help answer Jo's question.

Okay, here's a translation of the instructions. The stitch uses 4 pairs.

1. TC pairs 3 and 4, then do the same with pairs 1 and 2, and finally with the two center pairs. Place the top pin.

2. TC pairs 3 and 4, do the same with pairs 1 and 2. With the center pairs, CTC.

3. Twist pair 4 and place the pin that goes on the right arm of the cross. This pin is placed to the left of pair 4 (not between the threads). Do the same with pair 1, placing the left arm pin to the right of the pair threads.

Now comes the tricky part.

4. From pair 1, take the right bobbin and pass it over and under the threads of pair 2. From pair 4, take the left bobbin and pass it under and over the threads from pair 3.

5. Take the two center bobbins (the ones we just crossed) and C (left over right). Place the bottom pin above where this pair has crossed (not below the cross, as is usually done).

6. TC with pairs 1 and 2, and do the same with 3 and 4.

And that's it! The instructions stop there, so I assume one just proceeds to whatever is next afterwards. I haven't tried this stitch yet, but it looks beautiful, so I'll definitely put it on my to-do list!

I hope this helps, and I'll be happy to help with any more such translation issues (I'm Spanish, and actually work as a translator, so it's no problem at all).

Complicated !!!   Thanks

I am very grateful for the translation of the Spanish!

Re "Punto monja" - the description sounds very like the stitch used in honeycomb ground - of course, this stitch is done in a different pattern:

http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/lace/grhoney.htm

It also sounds similar to double Torchon ground, but with an extra twist:

http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/lace/grdtorchon.htm

So - double Torchon ground and honeycomb stitch... Does that sound right?

My correspondent came up with something rather different - a pattern of ground stitches which was a bit similar to honeycomb but done on a square Torchon grid, and sometimes NOT in a honeycomb pattern. She gave me this link (not hers):

http://www.r70.nl/?file=patroon-van-de-maand-2016/januari

But she was worried that it wasn't right, I think! It could be that the original meant  "Punto monja" stitches, but in this rather odd pattern. (Personally, I think it would look better with a hexagonal grid!)

The image in the last link you posted is one that I remember from a discussion that came up in a Facebook group of Spanish lacemakers I belong to; the person was asking precisely about punto monja, and that's where I discovered it was also known as trena vella and ojo de perdiz. I've seen the term trena vella used most often; a term search for punto monja on the page for that Facebook group only gives me that one post. It does look like the double torchon you posted. I'm most familiar with lacemaking terms in Spanish, because it's the milieu where I learned, so it's fun to look up what they're called in other languages!

Also, and I don't know how much this matters, all the Spanish lacemakers I know are twist-crossers. So you might have to adapt this to your own style if you regularly cross-twist.

Marisa, thank you so much for the translation of the Spanish video. I have made a diagram from it so I can see what is going on. It is surprisingly easy to translate into CT rather than TC, in fact, the description is much easier! (If I have got it right...) Essentially, it is a rose ground, but with cloth stitch (CTC) for each pin rather than half stitch, pin, half stitch (CT,pin,CT). Since there are less twists, the middle will be more filled in rather than all those holes you get with rose ground. one of the alternative names for rose ground is, indeed, 'five hole'! There are, of course, several variants for rose ground, such as CTCT,pin,CTCT, for each pin.
So my understanding for this checkerboard ground is first 'cross-overs' as I call them, pairs 1&2 CTCT and pairs 3&4 CTCT. That makes the corners. Then you do the pins from the top down, of course. Each pin is the relevant two pairs in CT,pin,C - which I can only describe as cloth stitch with a pin in the middle - easy to visualise as a concept, but not normally done in Torchon. After all doing four pins, twist all pairs (which is what you expect, coming our of cloth stitch). Then 'cross-overs' again,   (pairs 1&2 CTCT and pairs 3&4 CTCT).

The only part of this which is ambiguous is that I'm not sure if the 'cross-overs' are each CTCT (cloth stitch and twist) or CT (half stitch). There are rose grounds where the cross-overs are CT. The reason why this is ambiguous is that normally rose ground definitions describe the whole 'cross-over', and explain you don't need to do it twice between stitches. This description seems to be given 'half' of the cross-over at top and bottom, which is logical, since two half cross-overs make a full cross-over! But perhaps they are just doing a CT cross-over.

Dear me, this is getting technical! I've designed a v. simple pattern to try this out, and will report back when done.

I'm glad it helped! I'm actually going to try it this evening on a pattern I'm currently working on that calls for a rose ground. I'll post a photo once it's off the pillow. I'm not expert enough to respond to your analysis (and I'm a twist-crosser too, so I'll just be following the video without any conversion), but maybe we can share results once we both try it out?


Jo Edkins said:

Marisa, thank you so much for the translation of the Spanish video. I have made a diagram from it so I can see what is going on. It is surprisingly easy to translate into CT rather than TC, in fact, the description is much easier! (If I have got it right...) Essentially, it is a rose ground, but with cloth stitch (CTC) for each pin rather than half stitch, pin, half stitch (CT,pin,CT). Since there are less twists, the middle will be more filled in rather than all those holes you get with rose ground. one of the alternative names for rose ground is, indeed, 'five hole'! There are, of course, several variants for rose ground, such as CTCT,pin,CTCT, for each pin.
So my understanding for this checkerboard ground is first 'cross-overs' as I call them, pairs 1&2 CTCT and pairs 3&4 CTCT. That makes the corners. Then you do the pins from the top down, of course. Each pin is the relevant two pairs in CT,pin,C - which I can only describe as cloth stitch with a pin in the middle - easy to visualise as a concept, but not normally done in Torchon. After all doing four pins, twist all pairs (which is what you expect, coming our of cloth stitch). Then 'cross-overs' again,   (pairs 1&2 CTCT and pairs 3&4 CTCT).

The only part of this which is ambiguous is that I'm not sure if the 'cross-overs' are each CTCT (cloth stitch and twist) or CT (half stitch). There are rose grounds where the cross-overs are CT. The reason why this is ambiguous is that normally rose ground definitions describe the whole 'cross-over', and explain you don't need to do it twice between stitches. This description seems to be given 'half' of the cross-over at top and bottom, which is logical, since two half cross-overs make a full cross-over! But perhaps they are just doing a CT cross-over.

Dear me, this is getting technical! I've designed a v. simple pattern to try this out, and will report back when done.

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