I gather that certain lace traditions do a half stitch as TC rather than CT. They describe this as "starting lace stitches with a twist". But how do they do cloth stitch (CTC)? I can't figure out how that could start with a twist. Is this way of making lace in fact "all lace stitches except cloth stitch start with a twist, but cloth stitch is CTC"?

I want to put this in my website, but obviously I'd like to get it right!

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I'm a twist-crosser (as far as I know, Spanish lacemakers in general are). Cloth stitch is CTC for us, same as for cross-twisters.

Right! Thank you. That makes sense. It's interesting to figure out the pros and cons of both systems. For example, cross-twisters have to be careful to twist passives after something like a cloth diamond or fan, but twist-crossers don't, as your next stitch would begin with a twist, which sorts out that problem. But presumably you need to twist BEFORE a cloth diamond or fan diamond.

I'm adding some stuff to my website about foreign lace (foreign to me, as a Brit, that is!) Do you know how widely the twist-cross system is used? In what other countries?

By the way, my page on Spain is
   http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/lace/foreignspain.htm

It doesn't pretend to be authoritative or complete! But if you want to correct anything - feel free!

Thank you, I'll have a look this weekend!

I do twist before going into a diamond, yes. Basically any time I'm moving from a ground section into a motif.

I also (and this is something a fellow Spaniard recommended, but I don't know how widespread a practice it is) give the bobbins a couple of twists after doing each ground stitch. This saves me effort for the next stitch using those pairs and, more importantly, helps me keep the pairs together since they hang more neatly than they would leaving them after doing a cross movement.

I also do half stitch as TC, since I learned from Doris Southard's book. I have the impression that countries that use a bolster, rather than a cookie, flat, or roller insert pillow tend to do it TC rather than CT. But I also have the impression that regions that do a lot of tape lace also prefer the TC method. Additionally, I have the impression that this distinction is not absolute. There may be individuals in a TC region who do it CT and vice versa.

I tried to deal with this on my website.

http://lynxlace.com/learningbobbinlace-basics.html#colorcode 

Whether a lace maker does it CT or TC will require an extra twist to be added to a particular pair in particular situations. Rather than trying to memorize where the extra twist goes, I just look at the lace and make sure that cloth stitch diamonds, spiders or tape edges have equal numbers of twists entering that area as leaving that area. Just make it match. That is how I think of it.

Lorelei

I learned the CTC way, but was taught (by Christine Springett, I think, ) to use the TC method when working the legs/plaits in Beds Lace.

I understood the TCT way was Continental, and the CTC was English.

I accepted that, as the English have the footside on the opposite side to Continentals, - so it seems logical to me, for them to work the stitches the other way too!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

(Remember - I am English born & bred, and have lived Upside Down in Australia for many years, so......!!!!!!!! :) )

Ah! This is getting a bit off the discussion, but do the Australians tend to use the British techniques (footside on right, CT) or the Continental way (footside on left, TC)? Or is there a mixture? And what is the history of lace in Australia? Is the current flourishing lacemaking community in Australia a recent phenomenon, or were there immigrants bringing over their skills in the past? Are there any photos of historic Aussie lacemakers, or equipment, or lace?

I'm doing some pages in my website on non-British lacemaking matters, and I'd love to do one on Australia, but the only difference that I know so far is that 'whole stitch' is CTCT not CTC (which the British do). That was according to one Australian, but I don't know if even that is universal.

Thank you everyone! I've written my new webpage of the different traditions:

http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/lace/otctvtc.htm

As you can see, I've quoted some of the above! Very useful.

Jo - I feel there is an error in your describing the Twist  near the top of the page (link)

Twist -- You say:-twists where the first thread goes over the second, and the third goes over the fourth. These basic units are referred to as ... T.

Isn't  a twist right over left, and a cross is left over right?  Sorry if I am having a Senior Moment (quite possible!!) but it just seemed to read wrongly!

In answer to your other question,. - I  think Aussies generally follow the English way - footside on the right, - but that was the way we were taught.  There are a lot, now, of people coming here, and who have travelled in Europe (OIDFA etc) who use the Continental way, though, - so there is quite a mix.

Since the Internet, I think whole stitch - as I know it, anyway, - is CTCT, and Cloth stitch is CTC.  It seems to depend who taught you, and/or where you learned lacemaking!!!!!

I would say the majority use the British way, - and spangled bobbins, too!

Arrgghh! You're quite right. I was thinking "Well, if the second went over one way, then surely it must go under the other". But of course it's a different thread... (If that makes sense). I've corrected it. I had a horrible moment when I thought that I'd got my whole website round the wrong way. But of course that doesn't matter as long as it's consistent!

Re Australia - I did email the Australian Lace Guild, and the woman went and asked their committee(!) and they were all quite sure that a whole stitch was CTC, so CTCT was a whole stitch and twist :) They generally agreed that footsides were on the right (if there was a headside) and they'd never heard of a half stitch as being TC. Fair enough - originally, neither had I! But I think I'll have to delete my Australian page. The other 'foreign' pages were showing where their tradition was different to the British tradition (in language, equipment, way of making lace, etc), and I suspect that the Australian tradition is based pretty firmly on the British one. I can't have a webpage where the only thing on it is a fact which Australians disagree on! It's a shame, as I know that the lacemaking community in Australia is very strong. But so it is in the US, and I don't have anything on them. Oh well!

Glad I picked that up, for you!!

I think originally (late 1970s), it was called Whole stitch for CTC.,  then we started to get other information from overseas, and some teachers from Europe, and then they told us Whole Stitch was CTCT, - - so that is where the confusion still exists, I think!!  It depends who you talk to!  -- but that is like so many Lace terms, isn't I?!!

Workers, Walkers, Weaver, Leaders, and Runners, being the prime example of the pair that weaves across a row of Passive threads!!!


That's a great approach, and how I like to look at things too. I try to be consistent and look at the structure of what I'm working on, and that keeps me from going crazy trying to remember twists etc.


Administrator said:

I also do half stitch as TC, since I learned from Doris Southard's book. I have the impression that countries that use a bolster, rather than a cookie, flat, or roller insert pillow tend to do it TC rather than CT. But I also have the impression that regions that do a lot of tape lace also prefer the TC method. Additionally, I have the impression that this distinction is not absolute. There may be individuals in a TC region who do it CT and vice versa.

I tried to deal with this on my website.

http://lynxlace.com/learningbobbinlace-basics.html#colorcode 

Whether a lace maker does it CT or TC will require an extra twist to be added to a particular pair in particular situations. Rather than trying to memorize where the extra twist goes, I just look at the lace and make sure that cloth stitch diamonds, spiders or tape edges have equal numbers of twists entering that area as leaving that area. Just make it match. That is how I think of it.

Lorelei


And even within the same country, depending what part you're in, the stitch might be named differently! It's the same issue you mentioned with the whole/cloth stitch. Among Spanish lacemakers, I've seen people call CTC whole (although normally it's cloth), and others apply it only to TCTC.


Elizabeth Ligeti said:

Glad I picked that up, for you!!

I think originally (late 1970s), it was called Whole stitch for CTC.,  then we started to get other information from overseas, and some teachers from Europe, and then they told us Whole Stitch was CTCT, - - so that is where the confusion still exists, I think!!  It depends who you talk to!  -- but that is like so many Lace terms, isn't I?!!

Workers, Walkers, Weaver, Leaders, and Runners, being the prime example of the pair that weaves across a row of Passive threads!!!

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