I have to give a talk about one of the Dutch Lacemaker paintings. I know of over a dozen of these paintings, by different artists. Vermeer's is the most famous. They were all painted about 1655-1673, in the Netherlands. The problem is that I can't find any decent references to lace made in the Netherlands or Holland of this period. Some experts even say that they didn't make lace in Holland then, and that so-called 'Dutch lace' was really made in Flanders! Flanders lace is famous of course. The references to Dutch lace on the web seem a little vague, and fairly late in date. But the paintings are definitely Dutch - and early - and the artists come from all over the Netherlands. So there MUST have been lace being made in the Netherlands at that time!

I am particularly interested in what style of lace they would have made. I have the book Flanders Lace by Mary Niven, which is very interesting, but a little vague about dates, and anyway, that's about Flemish not Dutch lace. Also her patterns need a lot of bobbins, and one peculiarity of the Lacemaker paintings is that they don't seem to have many bobbins. Casper Netcher's Lacemaker (which is the one that I'm interested in) has only about 6 pairs visible, which cover half her pillow. Even assuming an equal number on the other side, that's only 12 pairs, which is hardly a complex pattern! You may think that the artist just couldn't be bothered painting lots of bobbins, but the rest of the paintings are so accurate that this seems odd. (And the accuracy also suggests that they were painting from real Dutch lacemakers). The pictures that I've seen of so-called Dutch lace also looks too complicated.

Could they be doing Torchon lace? Some people seem to think that Torchon was done throughout Europe, and very early, and of course you can do a decent pattern without too many bobbins.

What do people think?

Anyone who wants to look at these paintings, see

    http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/lace/ref.htm

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Ah! That makes sense! I've added the quote. I didn't find it as I was searching for 'bobbins', and 'lace' as a separate word. The translation I used had 'bonelace' as one word. It is obvious that this IS bobbin lace (or bone lace) from the final quote. Bone lace was an archaic term for bobbin lace.

Both paragraphs make perfect sense in terms of bobbin lace, falling collars, and Flemish lace.

Hello,

It has been long since I heard anything and since two days I receive again mails regarding the discussion.

However I must reply, as I see that translations and sometimes misinterpretations seem to appear.

Puntas de randas flamencas... Puntas is 'points'

randas is a lace terms and also translatated in the International Lace Dictionary as  an 'insertion' in french an 'entre deux - a piece which can be put in between tow other pieces 

Randas also refers to the  'border' .. = edge !

I would not say that 'bone ' is a free translation of the translator because;

Bone lace is BOBBIN lace as we know it. On older lace books one talks about 'bone lace' it means it is made with pieces of wood or bone or ivory where thread is wound on

Bone lace is  in fact synonymous with 'pillow lace ' and bobbin lace.

When one talks about bone lace it refers to Bobbin lace.  

Helen


 
Carolina de la Guardia said:

Jo, In chapter LXX, it can be found 2 different paragraphs that refer to lace. This first is very interesting as at that time we called yet "Flemish  laces" (in Spanish: 'puntas de randas flamencas'). The translation in English says:' Flemish bone laces' so the word "bone" is a free translation of the translator.

“To tell you the truth,” said Altisidora, “I cannot have died outright, for I did not go into hell;
had I gone in, it is very certain I should never have come out again, do what I might. The truth
is, I came to the gate, where some dozen or so of devils were playing tennis, all in breeches and
doublets, with falling collars trimmed with Flemish bonelace, and ruffles of the same that served
them for wristbands, with four fingers’ breadth of the arms exposed to make their hands look
longer; in their hands they held rackets of fire;.... .”

Then a second paragraph which makes sense once read the first one:

He replied, “Senora, let me tell your ladyship that this damsel’s ailment comes entirely of 4033
idleness, and the cure for it is honest and constant employment. She herself has told me that
lace is worn in hell; and as she must know how to make it, let it never be out of her hands;
for when she is occupied in shifting the bobbins to and fro, the image or images of what she
loves will not shift to and fro in her thoughts; this is the truth, this is my opinion, and this is my
advice.”

This second part of The Quixote was written in 1615.

Well, just my two pence to this thread about Spanish translation.

What I was interested in remarking is the exact meaning of the words appeared on The Quixote,(1605-1615) with the expression: 'Puntas de randas flamencas'.

At that time the word "randas" was used for all laces needle and bobbin lace, so was a generic expression. However in this case the author wanted to point out that they were 'Puntas flamencas'. In Old Spanish the word "puntas" refers to edges who were pointed, to distinguish of those who were insertions. This is the case as in the book refers to a collar.

And what I considered interesting was that the expression "Flemish laces" to differentiate of those made in Spain. This confirms that bobbin laces were being made since years ago by here.

On the other hand, I quote the expression that "bone laces" refer to Bobbin lace. I wonder which moment was changed the word "bone" (I suppose this expression comes from the time when the bobbins were made of bones).

Regards

Carolina de la Guardia

Helen Astle said:

Hello,

It has been long since I heard anything and since two days I receive again mails regarding the discussion.

However I must reply, as I see that translations and sometimes misinterpretations seem to appear.

Puntas de randas flamencas... Puntas is 'points'

randas is a lace terms and also translatated in the International Lace Dictionary as  an 'insertion' in french an 'entre deux - a piece which can be put in between tow other pieces 

Randas also refers to the  'border' .. = edge !

I would not say that 'bone ' is a free translation of the translator because;

Bone lace is BOBBIN lace as we know it. On older lace books one talks about 'bone lace' it means it is made with pieces of wood or bone or ivory where thread is wound on

Bone lace is  in fact synonymous with 'pillow lace ' and bobbin lace.

When one talks about bone lace it refers to Bobbin lace.  

Helen


 
Carolina de la Guardia said:

Jo, In chapter LXX, it can be found 2 different paragraphs that refer to lace. This first is very interesting as at that time we called yet "Flemish  laces" (in Spanish: 'puntas de randas flamencas'). The translation in English says:' Flemish bone laces' so the word "bone" is a free translation of the translator.

“To tell you the truth,” said Altisidora, “I cannot have died outright, for I did not go into hell;
had I gone in, it is very certain I should never have come out again, do what I might. The truth
is, I came to the gate, where some dozen or so of devils were playing tennis, all in breeches and
doublets, with falling collars trimmed with Flemish bonelace, and ruffles of the same that served
them for wristbands, with four fingers’ breadth of the arms exposed to make their hands look
longer; in their hands they held rackets of fire;.... .”

Then a second paragraph which makes sense once read the first one:

He replied, “Senora, let me tell your ladyship that this damsel’s ailment comes entirely of 4033
idleness, and the cure for it is honest and constant employment. She herself has told me that
lace is worn in hell; and as she must know how to make it, let it never be out of her hands;
for when she is occupied in shifting the bobbins to and fro, the image or images of what she
loves will not shift to and fro in her thoughts; this is the truth, this is my opinion, and this is my
advice.”

This second part of The Quixote was written in 1615.

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