How do you count the number of double stitches between picots?

[Tatting]

I am working on the IOLI Proficiency Program in Tatting. Participants are instructed to replicate numerous tatted samples. To accomplish this, we are provided with photographs of each completed piece, along with patterns. Patterns are presented in chart, "modern shorthand", or narrative form.

Sometimes, it seems as if the number of double stitches between picots differ in the photographs compared to the patterns. So, my question to all of you is, how do you count the number of double stitches between picots?

For example, how many double stitches do you count in a pattern that says: 2 ds, 1 p, 2 ds, 1 p

How many double stitches do you count in a pattern that says: 2 picots divided by 2 double stitches

Thank you in advance for your insights!

[Georgia Seitz]

 Which of these instructions is correct?

1. Make a ring of 12 double stitches evenly divided by three picots.

2. Make a ring of 3 double stitches, picot, 3 double stitches, picot, 3 double stitches, picot, 3 double stitches.

3. Make ring: 3 double stitches, picot (3x), 3 double stitches.

4. Make ring 3 DS p 3 DS p 3 DS p 3 DS.

5. R 3 - 3 - 3 - 3.

All of the above instructions are correct and all ask you to tat the same ring.

For your pattern, it would actually read 2 - 2 - 2, two double stitches a picot two double stitches a picot two double stitches.

Remember the double or half stitch must come before the picot, as the picot is merely the space between two half stitches.

Also, make note of the front and back side of the work.

And see here, too. 

left ring is front side up, but the right ring has the join so it has the same ds count but it looks different.

Email me any time [e-mail]

[Elizabeth Ligeti]

I don't take much notice of Front side/back side when tatting. I think I Should though!!!

However, I doubt if many people (other than Lacemakers and/or Tatters!!) would know there Was a difference. 

I would be interested in knowing what the IOLI Proficiency in tatting - lowest level, - involves.  the IOLI proficiencies are structured very differently to the Australian Lace Guild's ones.

Georgia - do you do just a normal join at the top of an Onion ring, usually?  With the 4 square mat in the Online Class the other week, it was a Catherine Wheel Join, - but is that unusual? 

[Georgia Seitz]

The Onion ring join is a special situation.

This join is not a shuttle lock join, nor a regular up/down join. This join needs to have the ring thread continue to slide.

Please review: http://www.georgiaseitz.com/2002/onion/onionhow2.html

http://www.georgiaseitz.com/2002/onion/onion.html

Save for future reference: http://www.georgiaseitz.com/2016/elizdaviselementaltechniques.pdf

The Catherine Wheel  join involves the second thread covering the core thread on the shuttle 1 and the thread of the spot to be joined:  http://www.janeeborall.freeservers.com/CatherineJoin.pdf

The CATHERINE WHEEL encapsulates two threads at the same time. It is created in the manner of making the split chain stitch or the tied double stitch. It is often used when making tatted coils or wheels, thence the Catherine Wheel.

Drop a loop of the SH2 thread behind the core thread which is positioned above the point of attachment (the thread in the space between two double stitches of the previous round. Bring the thread up through the work into a loop and put the shuttle through that loop. Remove only a little slack. Next form a loop on the front side and bring it to the back and put the shuttle through. Pull gently on the half stitch closest to the last ds made and snug up. Repeat with the other half. The double stitch on this round covers both the core thread and the thread from the previous round.

[Georgia Seitz]

https://internationalorganizationoflace.org/Proficiency/PPGen-2015.pdf

Elizabeth Ligeti said:

I don't take much notice of Front side/back side when tatting. I think I Should though!!!

However, I doubt if many people (other than Lacemakers and/or Tatters!!) would know there Was a difference. 

I would be interested in knowing what the IOLI Proficiency in tatting - lowest level, - involves.  the IOLI proficiencies are structured very differently to the Australian Lace Guild's ones.

Georgia - do you do just a normal join at the top of an Onion ring, usually?  With the 4 square mat in the Online Class the other week, it was a Catherine Wheel Join, - but is that unusual? 

[Georgia Seitz]

I helped to write that journal for tatting, but it has been several years now and I forget exactly what was where. But this is a list that I wrote for my online tatting class sponsored by PIECEWORK.:

Basic Tatting
 
The basic skills of tatting should be presented as if the student were learning to be the teacher.
 
Examination of the tools, tatting shuttles and needles, thread types and sizes, crochet hooks and picot gauges.
 
The new student is encouraged to master the double stitch (ds) in tatting by using just their hands and thread. With two colors of thread in a large size, knotted at the tails, the student is shown how to manipulate the working hand and then how to move the shuttle hand. The double stitch is explained as a two-step process and the student will repeat these motions just finger tatting until the “flip” or the transfer of the loop becomes visible to them. Knowing where to focus their eyes helps to speed the process of mastering the flip.
 
Once the transfer is learned the student can be graduated to a real shuttle and size 20 thread for learning purposes.
 
Again, beginning with the two colors for a chain, the student will practice the ds until regularity is gained. The creation of the picot is introduced next. Once confidence appears, the student moves onto rings still using one real shuttle and the ball thread.
 
The ring is learned followed by the principle of reverse work. The chain is practiced next. With the second ring, the concept of the join (either up or down) is introduced. The student tatter will practice now these techniques making yards of lace or dozens of tiny flowers, etc. Then comes a moment when the student feels that they want to learn more. This is the point where the study of tatting techniques becomes prominent.
 
After learning the most commonly used tatting abbreviations, r, ch, p, -, –, —, rw DNRW, +, etc., and how to read patterns, the study of the construction of tatting should start with the humble ring.
 
Ring: normal ovoid tatted ring, round traditionally made center ring, ring made to climb out into outer rows.
 
Chain: normal straight line chain, enhanced curved chain, chain functioning as a ring.
 
Picots: determining the size of picots, measured picots, using a comparison with the size of the ds to determine how many “ds long” a picot should be, the use of a picot gauge, discussion of picots used for construction purposes (very small picots), mock picots, picots used for decoration as on the outer rows, picots beaded, knotted, frayed, twisted, graduated, interwoven, doubled and tripled etc, interlaced.
 
Then, the serious work of study begins.
 
Rings
 
Rings, ovoid, traditional round and modern round ring for climbing out, partially closed rings (scallops or half-closed rings)
 
Split rings
 
Self-closing mock ring (SCMR)
 
Dimpled rings
 
Josephine Knot rings, spiral or node stitch rings
 
Interlocking rings
 
Folded rings, or crescent-shaped split rings
 
Floating rings or rings throw off scmr, chains and split rings
 
Rings formed by split chains (monochrome split ring created by using the split chain in order to maintain color pattern while climbing out into next row)
 
Maltese or Pearl Tatted rings
 
Ring only patterns using one shuttle requiring regularity of bare thread spaces to create a “net” effect as in mignonette
 
Square rings using an additional core thread, square rings created using the split ring to create a net effect as for filet or picture tatting
 
Single shuttle split rings
 
 
 
Chains
 
Straight line chains
 
Enhanced curve chains
 
SCMR or chain functioning as a ring
 
Split chains or Bridging
 
Split chain method used to create ring
 
Chains with rings thrown off below the line of progression
 
Single shuttle chains
 
Maltese or Pearl-Tatted chain
 
“Z” vs “S” chains, spiral chains, node stitch chains, zigzag chains
 

Joins
 
The up vs down join construction study includes the concept of all front or all back side tatting created when combined with down joins and other techniques
 
Shuttle lock joins
 
Ball thread joins including the “onion ring” join and the inverted “Dutch” style join
 
Joining to picot on outward facing rings without twisting the last join
 
Alligator or Capture join
 
Continuous thread join
 
Lark’s Head picot join, Lark’s Head picot join with split ring, split ring join, split chain join
 
Tied Double Stitch join
 
Catherine Wheel join
 

Picots
 
Picots unmeasured, measured, using the width of a double stitch to determine picot length
 
Starter picot
 
Decorative picots, made with picot gauge, graduated, knotted, Celtic, frayed, twisted, interwoven, doubled and tripled etc, interlaced, cut, ruffled, over-crocheted, embellished with a double stitch at the tip using a needle as if it were a shuttle, gathered.

Downward/inward facing picots
 
Central picot (to which multiple rings are joined)
 
Daisy picot
 
Ikuta style picots
 
Mock picot
 
Picots made using RODS
 
Riego original picot placement of picot between 1hs and 2hs instead of modern placement between 2hs and 1hs

Styles or Motifs
 
Block Tatting, Solid block tatting for designing
 
Cluny Tatting, hanging cluny leaves, split cluny
 
Celtic Tatting
 
Padded Tatting
 
3-Dimensional tatting, Bobble tatting
 
Tatting with Wire
 
Tatting on wire
 
Beaded Tatting, beads, buttons, baubles on working and core thread and on picots
 
Rolled Tatting
 

Basic and Unique Techniques and aids
 
Winding shuttles, continuous thread method
 
Front/back side work
 
One shuttle work including mignonette and honeycomb stitch
 
Multiple shuttle work
 
Shoelace trick
 
Magic Thread trick
 
Reverse Order DS (RODS)
 
Lock stitch (as opposed to SLJ)
 
Finger tatting
   
Japanese Needle Tatting
 
Needle Tatting
 
Tatting with a needle used as if it were a shuttle
 
Crocheted Tatting, cro-tat
 
Concepts
 
All the various ways to move the hands for tatting (Tatting Hands Video)
 
Read and Write Patterns
 
Modernize vintage patterns
 
Replace written pattern with diagrams
 
Diagrams with ds count or photo with ds count overlayed makes pattern in any language accessible
 
Reverse work vs, turn, flip, and rotate
 
Adding on threads
 
Finishing off ends
 
Encapsulation
 
Direct Method tatting
 
Designing, Bach vs Beethoven method, creating corners for edgings
 
Opening a closed ring
 

Historical research
 
Mlle Riego
 
Frau Tina Frauberger
 
Th. DeDillmont
 
Myrtle Hamilton
 
Norma Benporath
 
and many others
 
Overview of Tatting books in public Domain
 
Overview of Tatting in Japan and in Europe
 

[Anita Barry]

Ani:  Good questions!  Yes, sometimes the photograph of the tatted item and the instructions don't match. I believe I tried to follow the printed instructions first, then if my tatting wasn't working out, I tried the photographed stitch count.  Replicate the photograph as best as you can.  Did you tat the butterflies at the beginning of the proficiency? I was amazed how the various threads had different characteristics as I tatted with them...it opened my eyes to threads! 

Georgia's answers are superb!  Her explanations are clear & she's so knowledgeable!  She's excellent! Follow her lead!

People have written tatting instructions so many different ways!  So glad you are asking for assistance!  We helpers are here for you!  If you don't get a response, feel free to email me at [e-mail] and I will extend a helping hand.

I would tat your above examples as: 2 double stitches, picot space, 2 double stitches, picot space (followed by a double stitch to create the picot)   

I count each double stitch I tat. 

Hope this aids you. The IOLI Proficiency is research & writing, diagraming patterns & tatting. I looked up the pattern designers and contacted them to ask them questions about their pattern.  

Wishing you great rewards,

Anita

[Kathleen Minniti]

As usual, Georgia's response is complete and educational!  Thank you, both, for asking and answering!

[Anita Barry]

Regarding the IOLI Proficiency in Tatting - Unlike other proficiency programs, the IOLI Proficiency is a single book.  It has questions about the history of tatting, techniques, terminology, writing pattern instructions, etc.  There are more than 30 tatted projects.  There is no original designing in this proficiency. All tatting is based on patterns/images provided. The  techniques in patterns are generally not explained, rather it's up to the tatter to learn what is needed to complete the pattern. This proficiency provides for a lot of discovery. The tatter has a lot of internal growth.

Elizabeth Ligeti said:

I don't take much notice of Front side/back side when tatting. I think I Should though!!!

However, I doubt if many people (other than Lacemakers and/or Tatters!!) would know there Was a difference. 

I would be interested in knowing what the IOLI Proficiency in tatting - lowest level, - involves.  the IOLI proficiencies are structured very differently to the Australian Lace Guild's ones.

Georgia - do you do just a normal join at the top of an Onion ring, usually?  With the 4 square mat in the Online Class the other week, it was a Catherine Wheel Join, - but is that unusual? 

[Elizabeth Ligeti]

Georgia - you are Wonderful!!  Very many thanks for that long letter, - and also many thanks to the others who have answered, and added to the discussion.

I am learning So much!!!  And enjoying it So much, too..

I have not tried Needle tatting, though I have a couple of friends who do it. I have only done about 2 stitches of finger tatting, - but can understand the concept. I am mainly self-taught, but as I was a knitter for a wool company - checking the instructions, amount of yarn uses, garment turning out to correct size, etc - for about 30 years, I can read and understand instructions!! The Internet is wonderful for learning "How to.."  - I use Jane Eboprall's site "How to.." section a lot! - so now I feel I can do Lots of things with my tatting - way beyond the first 2 Penelope books I bought in the early 1950s to teach myself the craft!!!  But now there is SO much more to learn!!!!!!

[Anita Barry]

Yes.  You will see your tatting change & improve.  And, yes.  I did complete the proficiency.  I will aid you whenever you need it.  If your grandmother's tatting still seems mysterious, take a photo of your grandmother's tatting that puzzles you and post it, or email it.  We can help figure it out.

ani said:

Oh my goodness, Anita! You are so right about the Tatting Proficiency Program, and "The tatter has a lot of internal growth."

I started the program in hopes to learn more about my grandmother's tatted work. She passed away several years ago, and I wanted to recreate some of her pieces. After coming across a number of mysterious stitches, I decided it was time to try the program.

Although I'm not as far along in the program as I'd like to be, I can see a change in my tatting already. My stitches are more deliberate, which I believe is for two reasons (both of which are due to participating in the program): 1) I am actively studying tatting; and 2) I am engaging a daily, structured practice. (The process reminds me of studying piano theory, alongside scales and arpeggios.) To me, the visible change in my tatting is reflective of changes in my thinking about tatting.

All of this is to say, Anita, I agree with you about the program as an opportunity for growth.

And, I think I saw your name in the IOLI Bulletin as having completed the program...CONGRATULATIONS!!!

[Anita Barry]

I read the Australian Lace Guild's Tatting Proficiency.  It seems very challenging.  And, exciting.  I am still poking along with the Tatters Across Time Phase 3 proficiency.  Whenever I finish it I might enjoy the Australian proficiency challenges!

[Elizabeth Ligeti]

Tatters Across Time -- Ooh! I must look them up!!!!!! thanks for pointing me in their direction!

The Aussie Proficiencies are in 3 Stages.  I plan to just have a go at Stage 1, - and check out the IOLI Stage 1, too.  Nothing to be taken seriously, - just something to help me learn more about the craft, and try new techniques, and maybe concentrate my mind on completing pieces, - not just flitting around with a UFO on every shuttle (so then I buy more shuttles because the others are busy!!!!!!!!!!!   :)  )